Home
About
Table of Contents
Prophecy Timeline
Enemy Chart
Statement of Faith
Whats New
Articles
Your Comments
Links
GuestBook
Contact
bkgrnd

The Doctrine of Imminence

12.09.2006


--------------------------------------------------
Please don't forget to read the email exchanges many of us had concerning "The Doctrine of Imminence". They are posted at the bottom of this page.
--------------------------------------------------

Greetings Danny and friends,

Thanks again, Danny, for starting this discussion over imminence and the teachings of the pre and post tribulation rapture. I am particularly impressed with the attitude and grace that has been displayed by many of those who have contributed. This shows me that our Lord Jesus Christ is in our midst. He understands how confusing this topic has been over the years and how many on both sides have fallen into a condemning spirit over these things. This evil, competitive, and condemning spirit is nothing more than the "religious" carnal mind that we still possess due to our yet unsaved carnal bodies, even though our hearts have been made new by the indwelling Holy Spirit. By living and walking in the Holy Spirit we will not fulfill the always present desires and delusions of our carnal mind or flesh.

I think we all agree on one thing and that is only pre-millenialists can correctly look and long for the "bodily" second coming of Jesus Christ to imprison Satan and his fallen angels. Like one of you said, the post-millenialists and dominionists within Christendom have rejected the Lord's personal return to intervene in the death and destruction the sin nature of mankind has produced to the sick delight of the fallen angels who manipulate them. They have taken that intervention function upon themselves and clothed themselves with a militant patriotic pride that eventually kills those who reject their teachings. They want to wear a crown, but reject picking up their own cross. Many of them see the bloody cross only as a ticket out of Hell, but not the power to free them from their sin nature. Furthermore, many of them do not understand the basic elements of their sin nature which includes the pride of this life, the love of money and self, 1 John 2:16. I must admit here that this ignorance of the elements of the sin nature Jesus died to save us from is also rampant in pre-millennial circles as well.

I have learned from the Lord Jesus through many failures that this love, compassion, and grace must be directed at the dominionists as well as ourselves, even when they make fun of or persecute us. This is the power of the cross of our Lord Jesus working in us who are saved from the abominable sin nature that we were born with.

Now, concerning Revelation 20 and our main topic. In my article, "The Judgment Chronicles", posted on our web site, I attempted to show that the seventh trumpet angel sounding in Revelation 11 heralds and opens the final seven vials which last 387 days (Please read Prophecy Timeline on our site). These are the "days" of God pouring out the "fullness" of his wrath (Revelation 15:1, 10:7), due in part to the President and Pope having the two Jewish prophets murdered, and allowing their bodies to lay out in the streets of Jerusalem, when to the utter shock of the world they are resurrected and ascend in plain view into the heavens. As I understand this, the seventh trumpet angel is not the last day of Daniel's 70th Week as some have stated. It has no bearing with the "last trump" Paul alluded to. Only the two prophets arise at that time and then "before" the seventh trumpet angel even sounds, thereby ending the sixth trumpet! I believe the trumpet Paul referred to is found in Revelation 4:1, 1 Thessalonians 4:16.

Also for your information, I have read Rev. 20:4-7 many times over the years. Some have said this proves the post-tribulation position. I will try to make my understanding of this portion of scripture clear and simple. Rev. 19:7-8,14 shows me that the "armies that were in heaven" are the glorified resurrected Church that were "given" their white garments and crowns, Rev. 3:4-5, 4:4, before the great tribulation and the final battle of Rev. 19, for they "were" in heaven before Jesus "descends" to Earth to take down the Antichrist and False Prophet.

Furthermore, in Rev. 20:4 John sees in his vision thrones and "they" sat on them to judge. The "they" are the resurrected armies or saints who were in Heaven. But John also says..."and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded..." The word "and" is the key to understanding that John saw two groups of saints...those already resurrected, crowned, and clothed in white "and" the souls of them who are "about to be" resurrected to rule and reign on the Earth with the others in the millennial Kingdom of Jesus Christ.

It is important that we understand that these beheaded ones entered the 70th Week as unbelievers, both Jew and Gentile, many of whom had a form of godliness, were members of Christendom, but never truly departed from their sin nature through the shed blood of the Lord Jesus Christ. These people have now become the fruits produced by the two prophets and their "first fruits", the 144,000 Jewish missionaries, Rev. 14:7. John says later that... blessed is he that hath "part" in the first resurrection. There are two parts or phases to the first resurrection. I believe that those followers of Jesus who physically survive the 70th Week will be the ones who replenish or repopulate the Earth for one thousand years, Matthew 25:34, especially the surviving Jews of Rev. 12:6.

These are the reasons I believe as I do. There are many other teachings that point me to a any day any hour rapture of the "hated and persecuted" remnant, which according to Peter is the judgment upon the house of God, the separation of the vessels of honor from the vessels of dishonor, 1 Peter 4:7, 17-19, 2 Timothy 2:18-26. I know some of you disagree with what I have said here, but I thank you for not condemning me.

If any of us are in error about the prophetic details of the pre-millennial days of Daniel's 70th Week, I know that our Lord Jesus will bring correction, for none of us wants to believe any lies as though they are the truth. As our brother, the Apostle Paul, declared to a divided and competitive church in Corinth, even if we accurately understand all the mysteries of prophetic detail, and do not walk in the love and longsuffering of the Holy Spirit towards our worst enemies, we are nothing, 1 Corinthians 13:1-3. Thank you for bearing with me my eternal friends.

Sincerely,
Jack

--------------------------------------------------
Following are many of your comments sent to me by email concerning "The Doctrine of Imminence".
--------------------------------------------------

Jack,

I was a die hard pre-tribulationist for over 25 years. I defended the doctrine TOOTH AND NAIL until I tired of defending some defenceless passages. Revelation 20:4-7 really says it all. Add to that, the Olivette, and II Thess.2, and it became so frustrating that I just had to find the answer. After a couple years of hard research on the topic, I came to the same conclusion as all of these fine folks who responded so kindly to
my paper on "Imminence". The advantage that I had over some, is that I was broadly familiar with Pre-Tribulationism------so I didn't have to
familiarize myself with supporting scriptures before starting my study. I deeply appreciate your prophetic ministry; especially your warnings to this Nation-----Babylon/America. I'll be in touch-----Keep up the good work.

Danny McDowell
-----------------------------------------

Jack,

I believe that imminence as taught by the Baptist is unbiblical. Jesus said He would not return until the fullness of the Gentiles be brought in. Imminent as a definition from a dictionary simply means that someting is going to happen for sure without a doubt. Imminence as taught by the Baptist and other denominations of Christianity says that Jesus could have come back one hour after He ascended into Heaven, therefore, He could come back anytime.

This is false doctrine according to the Bible. According to II Thess 2: 1-10, there are two things that must happen prior to Jesus Christ returning and calling up His blood bought children. The apostacy and the revelation of the Beast/Antichrist. However, as stated above, He also said that He would not returned before the fullness of the Gentiles be brought in.

I certainly believe that as His Born Again, blood bought Sons of God, that we must always be ready, but the false doctrine of imminence certainly appears to be something that was brought into the Protestant Churches long ago by the Jesuits of Jude 4, along with other false salvation doctrine, i.e. instantaneous salvation, etc.

Please consider this and give me your thoughts. As the Bible says, we as brethrern should reason this out together. I certainly will listen to you and your thoughts.

Your brother in Christ Jesus,

Dennis Haddix
--------------------------------------------------

Hi Jack:

I am glad you clarified these points regarding imminency. The numbers opposing this and a pre-Tribulation rapture seem to be growing daily. Worse, they present many somewhat factual Scriptures supporting their contentions. Still, why do they ignore the words of Jesus when He told us to "watch", and "be ready"? Watch, and be ready for what? The coming of Antichrist? The wrath of man, Satan and later God Himself? John also said they he that has (this) hope purifies himself, even as (Jesus) is pure. He told us to look for Him, our Blessed Hope, and to live as if He could come at any time.

Regarding LeHaye, Lindsey, Hinn and Copeland, I can't speak for their salvation, but if they are saved, they will have some measure of works to present to Jesus at the Judgment Seat of Christ: II Corinthians 5:10, Romans 14:10. Whether their works abide in trhe fire that is to try them (gold, silver, precious stones), or suffer loos by going up in smoke (wood, hay and stubble) is to their account. I believe they need to repent of their false doctrine soon because time is running out, and none of them can take a Mercedes to the Judgment Seat. Meanwhile, back at the watchtower, I have to be on guard that my works, meager as they are, do not likewise go up in smoke. Thanks again Brother for the encouragement. Your Western Watchman and eternal friend,

Mark
--------------------------------------------------

Hi Jack:

Always great to hear from you. I want to wish you and your family a wonderful Merry Christmas.

Oh, yes! Regarding post-trib Christians - ask them who enters the Millennium - that will befuddle them - See Matthew 25:31-34.

Always good to hear from you Jack.

Bob Handley
--------------------------------------------------

Shalom Everyone,

I find prophecy interesting and most useful to bring the unconverted to the
Lord. In fact I have made my lliving on radio and in print for five years
now with prophecy as a primary focus. That said, I never forget that
prophecy is knowledge that humans can make big mistakes in understanding and
teaching and potentially still be saved. Sometimes the mastering of
knowledge puffs up, to use the old language. This awareness does not negate
that prophecy is very important Bible knowledge that may provide the
believer with tools to maximize his or her time in God's service while in
the flesh. Correct understanding of prophecy is not the indwelling of the
Holy Spirit so critical to eternity.

I perceive advantages and disadvantages to each of the resurrection
perpsectives. The pre-tribbers might not recognize Antichrist, if they still
are not raptured and a "truly competent and moral political leader of global
stature" arises. The post-tribbers might be too concerned about finding a
safe hiding place in the woods with lots of food and other survival gear.

Personally, I lean to the clear statements of Revelation 20 to place the
first resurrection at the start of the millennium, but I respect and can
even teach the pre-trib position. But I mostly try to keep my focus on
preaching Yeshua our Messiah, Jesus the Christ. The spiritual preparation is
primary, and in this I agree with Jack's basic concern about the confusion
of loyalties, such as the potentially eternally damning mistake of placing
earthly citizenship on par with the heavenly one - when we should always
seek and place the Kingdom of God first, above all.

I also agree with Jack's perspective on non-violence and legally avoiding
military service even as we should respect the veterans who sincerely died
for our rights. I would only hope to be strong enough in the Lord to act
accordingly if I ever find myself in such a situation. Meanwhile, we should
reach our the hand of Jesus through us to each person who will receive it,
where ever they are presently in this life and encourage them to turn his or
her face to God and begin to take some steps in His direction.

God have mercy on us all and guide us through the days to come. And let's
not forget that there are so many millions who are against the Bible and
dismiss our Savior as merely a good man.

Shalom to all,
Chris Patton
(Not related to the famous general for at least 200 years back.)

--------------------------------------------------

Dear Brothers Jack and Danny,

Thank you for sharing this exchange once again. I am honored to be a part because I too believe as Jack that we should be fellowshipping in such a way that will keep false doctrines and ideologies at bay. This kind and type of exchange allows us to express ourselves and share in a non militant fashion so that we may together come closer to a unifying faith and understanding in the gospel of Christ crucified.

Danny mentions what has recently also been revealed to me but I understand the seeming paradox of imminence slightly different. I have no doubt that we all should carry on with our lives being ready for our returning Lord with a continual sense of urgency. It is for us a hope and a longing because we still continue to suffer if we are following the pattern of Christ and obeying His teachings and commands. Who wouldn't want to be released from this cup of suffering? Even Jesus requested it in the garden but gave way to the Father's will being more important above all else.So, if the Lord seems to tarry in our own lives and times, it is merely because there is more yet to be fulfilled and we are still growing in our understanding of prophetic fulfillments. Remember too that the prophets of old spoke of things which they longed to understand themselves but could not because the prophecy was for a time in the future still yet to be fulfilled. The point then is that when God wants us to understand, He reveals it in His appropriate timing. This does not change the necessity for us to express our witness with a sense of urgency. This is a "hope" we maintain - not an errant doctrine.

The scriptures Danny provided all point to a time that true Christians will not be made unaware regarding our Lord's returning. It most certainly will not be a silent event either. The whole world will likely witness this rapture and mourn because of this particular fulfillment. When the world sees the Son of God coming in all His clouds of glory, it will be at that time when all the kings of the earth are gathering in that place called Armageddon and it will be while He is still in the air and clouds that "we will meet Him." The scriptures all fit nicely together if we understand that the first resurrection is pre-millennial but not prior to the start of tribulation. I think that many who are beholding to a "pre-tribulation" rapture misunderstand tribulation as being wrath. Tribulation is trouble and scripture further demonstrates that these troubling times will increase with a global intensity but as the Lord promises, "these days will be cut short," that being a period of seven years. The actual wrath does not occur until our Lord has set foot on earth again - then there shall be great recompense to pay. So, Armageddon then is the battle to end all battles and marks the end of the tribulation. That moment in time, which according to Paul, is as quick as the twinkling of an eye occurs "immediatly after the tribulation" according to Christ and just before the time when all the kings of the earth do battle against the Lord (Armageddon). Scripture decribes these two events as the "Day of the Lord" and the "Day of Christ."

Therefore the first resurrection is simultaneous with our Lord's returning and is completed upon our Lord's return. By the time He sets foot on the Mount of Olives cleaving it into two, we who are part of the first resurrection will have been changed and have received our new incorruptible bodies. All who will be a part of the first resurrection will be those deemed faithful in their witness and testimony of Christ and many of them will have died prior on account of their faithful testimony. So Paul reminds us that the "faithful" dead are risen first and then those of us who are among the living (who are also faithful) will meet our glorious Lord together with them in the air.

Taking all the prophetic scriptures into account that deal with our returning Lord and the first resurrection clearly demonstrate a "pre-millennial" rapture but not a "pre-tribulation" event. The one concrete clue that supports what I believe to be true is found in Revelations 16:15. It is here where the kings are all gathering to do battle against the Lord when the faithful words of our Lord and Savior are once again interjected. Not all the red letter Bibles render this verse in red ink but I think they should. Revelation 16:15 "Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame."
If any of you are interested in my latest Scroll on this subject, "The Order of Resurrection(s)" then please link to my web ministry archive where this exhortation is located. This Scroll deals only with the proper timing and order of the two resurrections. In it, I also discuss troubling views held by both sides of the argument coming from post and pre-tribulationists. Where there is disagreement, the Word measures and judges the matter. I stand on what the Word reveals moreso than what men have misinterpreted and made out to become false doctrines. If you're interested, please click on http://nicholas-scrolls.com/archive_volume_3_number_8.html

I have just one question for Jack... are we still in sync with our understanding? I anxiously await your reply.

With all sincerity and love for the truth and our scattered brethren abroad,

Nicholas A. Stivers

--------------------------------------------------

Greetings Nicholas, Danny, and friends,

Please know, Nicholas, that we both share the same foundational truth that is needed to be born again and to live and walk in the power of the Holy Spirit. This makes us brothers in the family of God and "in sync" as far as I understand things.

As I stated in my reply to Danny's letter, some friends have changed their position on the rapture from pre to post. I have not, but am always open to correction. Some post trib adherents seem to forget or diminish the pivotal role the "natural" Jews play in the 70th Week according to Revelation 7&11&14, when the "latter rain" falls upon two Jewish prophets and 144,000 Jewish evangelists in the likeness of the "early rain" of the first century when multitudes of Gentiles were saved by converted Jews. By keeping today's true born again Church, consisting of both Jews and Gentiles, on the Earth, confuses that truth of the "latter rain" first falling upon the natural Jews, who are the "first fruits" of the 70th week, Revelation 14:4. Revelation 4:1-2 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 seem to me to be teaching the pre trib rapture and first "part" of the first resurrection of the dead saints. Those believers martyred during the 70th week will have their bodies resurrected at the end to complete the first resurrection, and then we all will reign with our Lord Jesus for 1000 years on the Earth.

There was a time in my walk with Jesus when I thought all post tribbers were "delaying" the coming of the Lord by seven years and therefore could no longer be longing and looking for the return of Jesus as are the post millenialists. I am sorry for that and have since found that pre tribbers can fall into that trap as well, when they align themselves with the political-religious-economic-military aspirations of America/Babylon/Rome. Lindsey and LaHaye are prominent examples. On the other hand, I have met some dear post trib brothers over the internet who certainly love and long for the Lord's return to Earth and understand the purpose of the cross better than Lindsay and LaHaye. They truly love Jesus and allow his love for their worst enemies to flow through them, rather than calling for their destruction or death. They reject the militant patriotism mingled with the gospel that Lindsey and LaHaye so clearly represent.

Matthew's words of warning to lukewarm Christians who minimize the second coming of Jesus who say..."my Lord delayeth his coming"...should cause all of us to beware of falling into that "evil" servant category. I fully agree with Gavin Finley, who said that only pre-millenialists are looking for Jesus and should not be contentious with each other over the pre or post tribulation rapture. We should be united in our love while appealing to the post-millenialists and "dominionists" to repent and start looking and longing for the bodily return of our Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ.

Your brother in Jesus,
Jack Hook
--------------------------------------------------

Greetings Friends,

I have received several complaints from friends like Jim, who say they have been bombarded by emails that appear to be related to my Cc emails sent recently to my friends. There seems to be some who are outraged at what I and others have written, and though I thought of them as brothers or sisters in Jesus who are open to discussion in the spirit of the Bereans, have passed your email addresses on to others who then sent you unwanted, complaining, or unkind emails. I am extremely sorry that this is happened and it shows me how my best intentions to unite brothers and sisters in our Lord Jesus who might not have known each other, has been misused to hurt others. Please forgive me.

Your bother in Jesus,
Jack Hook
--------------------------------------------------

Hello Jack:
I agree with you that our Lord will cover you. that's what's wrong with some
Christians, they want to keep their fingers in their ears. They don't want
to learn and grow. I know that you are a Godly man and don't let the devil
torment you. I agree that you will put this behind and follow your Jesus.
Some of us enjoyed the debate.
love in Jesus,
Pat Holliday
--------------------------------------------------

Jack, no need to apologize. I have listened with interest to the
various opinions rendered on the rapture.
I am amazed that people should be angry that others don't agree with
them. I have certainly been irritated, but never angry, when people
don't hold to my view of the rapture.

I do personally think it unwarranted to say that we're selfish who
believe the Lord will rapture us. Any Christian should want to be out
of here. Many of us are suffering very much at this time, and to be
with the Lord instead of in this mess would be such a blessing, how
could we not accept gratefully? I want everyone to be out of here. I
do understand your wish to remain as long as possible to be a good
influence on friends and family to accept the Lord.
I have tried to be patient to do this "job", too.

But right now, OUT OF HERE is my cry. OUT! Come, Lord Jesus!

One does not need to be in Somalia to suffer the pangs of the
tribulation which are on us already. David Lowe (Earthquake Rapture)
thinks we have been in the trib ever since Jesus left--I recommend his
website to you and any interviews you may find on the internet with
him.

Thanks.
Mariel
--------------------------------------------------

Dear Brother Jack,

There is nothing to forgive, brother.. Most of us are not fully sanctified
yet. Whenever there are discussions that dig deep some of us will take
exception to what is said. It is also normal for us to wince at the
implications as deep calls unto deep. We are not rational but emotional
creatures. We go on our "feelings" more than we are willing to admit. Fondly
held beliefs are hard to part with. So this sort of backwash from a good
solid scriptural discussion is normal in our present level of holiness and
unholiness. Here on the net the saints are airing subjects that have beed
avoided in the mainstream milk-toast churchianity. So this less than
gracious behavior by some as these blood covenant matters are brought to
discussion is not unexpected.

This discussion is tame compared to the ones we saw on the Bible Prophecy
Forums 7-8 years ago. When Christians were just coming out onto the net the
bunfights we experienced were something to behold. People were offended, for
good reasons and for bad reasons. And people differed in their opinion as to
whether the hurts they were experiencing were because of bad offensive
goings on or whether it was good grief and growing pains brought by God's
Word. Growing pains are normal. They happen to people who are growing up
into Christ.

We may have our ticket to heaven. But we have not yet arrived. We are in an
information war. Most Christians have not yet come to terms with that. But
it is a reality. We have Utopian expectations of the church and the world.
The harlot wags her finger and says, "Be good!" and "Don't offend Johnny by
saying something he doesn't want to hear!" We have this false notion of a
perfect church and the perfectibility of the world by us Christians before
Messiah comes. Nothing could be further from the truth. The nations are
raging. And Jesus said, "Think not that I have come to bring peace, but a
sword." The sword of the Word of God is coming out of the mouth of Our Lord
Jesus, whilst Rick Warren says, "Be nice. And don't speak of Bible prophecy.
It might offend somebody." And "We should all seek "unity". Apart from this
lukewarm ecclessiastical mush we also hear the Kansas city prophets tell
dominionists, "The end time is none of your business!"

God help us.

The discussions are great, Jack, and they are needful. Your gracious
oversight makes them possible. They are the heart and soul of this great age
of letters we are now living in. This is the beginning of the great end time
revival. We are blessed to have this sort of real, if somewhat rough and
tumble, Christian interchange. Otherwise we might be left to just sit in the
pew as a spectator of a religious show by the anointed ones. Or we might be
doing a deep reading of the "Purpose driven life" in preparation for taking
our final vows and before entering into a covenant with a megachurch.

No, give me the brisk interchange we have been seeing anytime. I for one,
want to know my Lord Jesus in a deeper more intimate way. Anything that
causes us to dig deeper in our Bibles or cry out to God will help us grow in
Him. We are saints walking along the pilgrim's path. Most of us do not see
eye to eye yet. But this is to be expected. We shall be in true unity in
Christ when we reach the end of our march to Zion. We are passing up on the
way up onto the highway of holiness. Some will be offended. And some will
even fall away when they encounter trials. Jesus told us this would happen
in the parable of the sower. Some Christians will believe they have run up
against a "raw deal". But that is the nature of blood covenant. It is our
attitude to these afflictions that determines our character. We try to
entreat and be all inclusive in our dealings. But we will never be able to
please everyone. People will be offended by the Word. And unfortunately
people will also be offended by mean haughty, mean spirited carnal
Christians. Sometimes BOTH are going on at once. Some Christians will be
offended by the cross. We cannot avoid that. We are told that a remnant
shall return. I for one want to be in that number. So give me the rough and
tumble reality that cuts to the chase like we see in these discussions in
the Word. I would prefer this to smooth talking duplicity and and shallow
insincerity anyday.

Blessings to you, Jack.
I am your servant in Christ our Ishi,
Gavin

P.S. you may share this with the brethren if you wish.

--------------------------------------------------

Jack - you're a real MENSCH! Your stock just rose 100% - yes, it is a minefield out there--but we're called to march through! Praying with you for the faith of the gospel . . . Bro. Doug

----------------------------------------

Dear Jack
I found your discussion very interesting and a test of what I truly believe when God within me weighed it all out in the balance. All I can say is that I long deeply within for the return of Jesus Christ to live in power--the sooner the better. I am not about to "help" him along though and everyone should follow after his leading. We assume that leadership is correct and follow them blindly. As for the rapture of the saints-live and dead and the war between good and evil to be finalized, it is not as important as our personal love relationship with Jesus. Prayer works miracles. If we spend time in prayer, the Holy Spirit working on us will bring us into all truth if we trust in God. Ask him to lead us into the truth of the matter and he will. I like to discuss the Bible and find that it helps for me to put what I believe on paper/internet to see what I truly believe. It gives the Holy Spirit a chance to correct me, train me and educate me. So either way you, your friends and I win with these emails. However, babes can be hurt in such a discussion and if they request to be left out, so be it. you may keep sending me the discussion and don't feel like you have done wrong in my case. It's challenged me to grow some more.
Your sister in Christ
Mary
--------------------------------------------------

Dear Jack,
I'm so sorry to see that your good intentions have gone this way. I was
enjoying reading the interaction, even though I contributed nothing. There
were no emails sent to me from anyone else, except for one that was in reply
to you, which was fine with me.

There will always be some, even in the Body, who have their own little
agenda, or "bandwagon," and can't seem to handle someone else having a view
on what the Bible has to say. It is with much grief that I have read some
things (not yours), written by "Christians," regarding the end times and
apostasy. Such self-righteous harshness is not honoring to our Lord. I may
not agree with your position on some things, but it causes me to dig and
search the Scriptures to see if possibly I may be the one who understands
incorrectly. Jesus is indeed coming back and we will all rise to meet Him.
The timing of that, in relation to human time frames, will be known when it
happens. That, we can count on. The main thing is that we are IN HIM here
and now, walking by His Spirit, and when He comes we will be WITH HIM. If
it is according to the position I hold, then we had better be IN HIM. He is
coming back, and I long to see Him. Praise Him forever!!

Keep on keeping on, Jack.

In Jesus,
Stella
--------------------------------------------------

Hello Jack

Yes I myself received all the e-mails that were destined for you, from all sorts of opinions, from the sublime to the ridiculous, but never mind Jack I only had to read the first 8 - 10 lines to get the picture what most were saying.

Most of what you originally said, at the outset Jack was right, I have seen many a good word or advice been treated in this way, and seen some what I thought were good solid brothers and sisters to be quite the opposite, so it was nothing new to me to find you yourself coming under attack for your bold speaking, I think in many ways Jack if myself and you were to type down a reply to some of the militancy comments coming your way, I very much doubt if our dear wives could tell us apart, because Jack I see no wrong, "Biblically" with what you have said.

The only thing that I have seen which I myself now adhere to it is this. Just two years ago an Irish minister did and still does take debates to such a level I wonder some times should he have left well alone after the initial point.

Well his persistence was punished, he actually had to close down his chat-room and to this day has never got it back up and running, because a person would not let this minister off the hook, "no pun intended"

So Jack all I would say is that you made your point quite eloquently and plain,I feel after the first objection to your boldness, so Jack please do not get tangled up with these other opinions, let them go, and get on with the important work you have to do, I do speak from experience, I myself am very up-front and bold, it gets me into all sorts of tricky situations but I to have to let go, else I would get nothing else done.

But lastly Jack, no apology is necessary, I feel by scripture you are right, therefore if others will take no notice, you have at least pointed out the facts, I think in future Jack when you get a situation like this again, just refer the person in question to the answer, whether you have it in an article you have already written on your web-site, or you know of a web-site you feel has the answer in an article, this way Jack I feel you will stop the agitators coming on to you in the way they have.

Now take care my brother, and stay out of the fire, okay.

With Christian love to all the Hook family.

Yours in Jesus.
Ray K
England
--------------------------------------------------

My personal opinion is I think it might do those that oppose you good to look at some of the letters that Paul wrote.
None of us has ever had to be taught how to be sinful - it's an inbred skilll.
Paul doesn't dance aroundthe issue.
He says each ogf us has inherited the tendency from our distant forefather Adam.
Love in His name,
Rollie
--------------------------------------------------

Good evening Jack,

Please don't hesitate to send me any email updates or discussions such
as the one that took place this past week. I enjoyed it very much.
Thank you.
Blessings.
Steve
--------------------------------------------------

I think it was an error in my server, that I got any negative stuff. I KNOW I took off a few that requested I do so, and somehow they got back on , and it made them mad.

As for your dabate making me mad, not so, I enjoy healthy discussion. Some people think that to disagree is hateful and it stresses them. I like that it's one of those things our country was founded on. These are important issues. We SHOULD be passionate about them. The rapture timing is not necessarily a salvation issue. I don't think any of us will lose our salvation for believing one way or the other. It may be more difficult for some to deal with the shock if they happen to be wrong. I think it would be harder to deal with being wrong if we will be here during tribulation, than if we were to be wafted away into the easy presence of Jesus and miss it all. I have read the testimony of two (Corrie Ten Boom and Brother Kato) that actually attest to the fact of those being taught pretrib that some people lose their way when under great personal tribulation and strain. This is very sad. It is better that they be taught strength in suffering for Christ, like Peter.

Anyway, I appreciate you Jack and what you are trying to do, and will always respect you, unless you start talking crazy like some of the "elect" have started to do in these End Times. Like visions of church members being from other planets and advocating multiple marriage like the Mormons (I didn't make that up- it was what drove a couple away from a church in Canada Mike met). Yeah, this guy was solid, and then all of a sudden boom, out of the blue, started talking crazy.

Any way Jack, We love you, keep up the good work,

Delia and Mike

--------------------------------------------------

Jack:

I, for one, appreciate what you are doing. This discussion has been eye opening. I have enjoyed it immensely and have been blessed. It has made me scurry to my Bible more than once, and anything that causes me to excitedly find something in the Word is appreciated.

I love the ministry God has given you charge of and lood forward to future mailings and possibly some fellowship.

May God continue to bless and keep you.

David
www.goodsoldierchurch.com

 

bkgrnd